OK. That’s a good thing to be clear on.

I seem to have developed a reflexive sense of outrage on this topic. Since that’s not a part of my real life persona, I suspect it’s borne of the frustration of discussing this for so long with folks who would give no ground or see no wrong or suffering on the Players side.When I started commenting on this case, I had a naive general assumption that there were misunderstandings to be cleared up and then most folks of good will would find common ground.

I expected , say, in regard to the “Listening Ad”…an apology by some of these profs…coupled with a call for understanding as to how and why many might have staked out the position they did.

Fair enough.

I expected to concede that there was much to be learned on both sides. I DID NOT expect, op-eds claiming the Players were receiving such campus wide FABULOUS support in the early weeks that Prof Davidson had to reach out to her OTHER students (who were the ones truly being abused.) and Burness sneering to a N.Y. journalist…”Apologise? For what?” I did not expect the slick rewriting of history and arrogant denials.

I thought this would be a racial “Aha!” moment that would bring vividly home to “us” what the poor and minorities suffer in far greater proportion than white Lacrosse players. I thought the blatant misdeeds here would JOIN us toward common goals. I thought it would be a teaching moment that would lead to reform. I did not expect the NCNAACP “case description” and the reverse racism of so many in Durham.

I just had such a naive high opinion based on the mix of folks in my own life and how we interact and how we treat and respect each other…I am still stunned at the animosity and bias and lack of empathy for what these families endured.

These families need their story told. They need to know how this happened and why. They need the stubborn and arrogant to know too. Nifong could not have done this alone. Others had to violate laws and moral boundaries to help him. Nifong could not make all these people betray their legal, professional and moral responsibilities. He just couldn’t.

And every one of these “defendants” was like a brick layer doing his part to build this Frame…some small, some large, but all contributed. Now, they say, “Hey…I just gave the drunk the car keys…”

We need to understand how each contributed and SO DO THEY! Levicy, for example, has to get a grasp on how a SANE nurse has an obligation to report only medical fact , no embellishment, because a rogue in her profession can ruin innocent lives. Telling her she’s A-OK will not achieve this. On some level the leadership of Duke and Durham, unrepentant as they are, need their misdeeds all laid out and exposed. Only in that way, can each understand how his small compromise with truth or law or common decency was a vital building block of a FRAME.

To your other point, what remedy is there other than dollars? It seems very few reputations in Duke and Durham were harmed in the making of this Frame. (see last post) Except the reputations of these innocent kids. To a man like Steel, who thought what was most important was not their sons but what was “best for Duke”…what else might even resonate with such a mindset?

Many of my comments are not directed at you..though your entrance into the fray to (of all things) critique KC puzzles me…and I think I’ve done a poor job of making that clear. I apologize for that.

Mark and I (and his friends) have another history. I remember well…much that has been written from that quarter about the boys and their families. As Mark judges me by my friends, I confess I judge him by his. Their animosity, even now, toward the families is well documented. The pleasure they seemed to draw from their pain is memorable. When Mark comments on the cases not being about reform…echoes of other comments from other Boards he frequents…resonate.

But I am wrong to bring that negative energy here. My tone is usually a resonse to YOUR tone…I believe you answered a sincere post of mine with a comment that I was writing a political commercial.

Look, I am just a Mom who thought she could feel one small part of the anquish and fear these families felt…just a tiny portion of it. Before I made my first blog post..I thought how great it would be IF ONLY a few of the brilliant and eloquent faculty of Duke would speak up for these families. Or some big name journalists. I once wrote how we little bloggers were like guys with lawn mowers trying to cut down a huge field of lies. HOW EASY it might have been for the guys with the “Big Tractors” , I wrote.

But they wouldn’t come. Or couldn’t. Some came eventually. Some (Duke faculty) just never found reason to care at all.

Some of us will still push our little mowers till the families decide it’s time to stow them in the barn. We think untangling the Hoax matters. We think THEY matter.

Thinking about reputations, it’s interesting that you brought up Levicy. Offhand, my guess is that the message she’s gotten, after being publicly discredited, vilified, and named in a couple of sprawling lawsuits, is not that she’s “A-OK.” Whether she’s experienced the appropriate professional consequences, I really don’t know, but I think it’s ludicrous to imagine she hasn’t experienced some very serious consequences.

It does seem to be the case that those of us involved in this debate on the internet carry around a taint based on the company we keep (or the company others imagine us to keep)—you with LieStoppers, me with the “Group of 88,” Mark with the batcave, etc. It’s a bad habit. One thing that makes it hard to avoid is the feeling, when, say, a new comment appears on a blog, of having heard it all before. That’s what tends to turn me sarcastic. My guess is that others have a similar feeling of hearing the same old thing from what seem to be the same old people.

I do understand your disappointment with the faculty at Duke. I’ve described my own disappointment with them several times—once again in the entry I posted last night. One thing many of them seem to have been naive about is how completely messages can backfire. If you’re sure that what you’re doing is what the families want and in their best interests, then I guess you should keep pushing the little mower.

For what it’s worth, though, that reflexive sense of outrage you mentioned, broadly directed at everyone associated with the “Frame,” doesn’t make me feel more sympathy or understanding towards the players or their families. Not that I feel unsympathetic or antagonistic—I don’t think of them as the enemy or anything like that, but I do have to distance them from what you’re saying on their behalf. This was especially true after your comments about KC Johnson in our earlier thread. If you look at what I’ve written about him, you’ll see that I think he’s approached the lacrosse case as an intellectual charlatan and a demagogue. You have nothing to say about that, except that it seems that I’m trying to “diminish KC Johnson or his contribution to these innocent kids.” And it’s not that you disagree with the criticisms I’ve made of him—what I actually criticize him for is apparently not important enough for you to mention or form an opinion about. It’s not at all news to me when you say you’re confused about my “entrance into the fray to (of all things) critique KC.”

Taking what you care about (what a loyal friend he’s been to the players and their families) and adding it to what you don’t seem to care about (my actual objections to what Johnson has written), and it looks like you don’t care whether your friends are honest as long as they’re loyal. Is that what you mean to say? And should I take it as the families’ opinion as well?

Neither of you, to my knowledge, have any personal knowledge of these families, have ever discussed with them their feelings, motivations, or the toll this fiasco took on them in so many individual ways. So you have no REAL idea of how each of them sees the “purpose” of the lawsuits.

After everything these families have been through , after a year of having their sons branded as the most vile offspring of white privilege, as “hooligans”, as racists, as rapists or part of a “blue wall of silence” supporting racists….by their professors, by media EVERY NIGHT, by a consensus of SILENCE from many…how do any of us know what these suits mean to them? None of us have walked in their shoes…but I’ve heard a few , first hand, describe the painful journey.

Have you heard them describe living with the hell of Rita Cosby parked with tens of media trucks on their front lawns, banging on their front doors…or tell of thousands of hate calls IN ONE WEEK after Duke refused to take down their personal information from the Lacrosse website, or relate the REAL FEAR for even their extended family? “You’re a dead man walking” “Rapist, you will pay.” “Castrate them.” Have you felt any of this, even momentarily, for them?

Mark, on what do you base your opinions on the motivations behind these suits? On personal knowledge of these families? Or these TYPES of families? Or people who LOOK LIKE these families? On what?

We live in a world where a lack of sensitivity to another’s race or culture can cost you your job , where hanging a noose alone may become a crime, yet these families should, in your opinion just suck it up and go away? What’s the cut-off for you to be able to feel compassion? Were these families any less “terrorized” ?

In this case, Two-Time False Accuser Crystal Magnum, too impaired to be held accountable, is now a “magna cum laude” grad in LAW ENFORCEMENT. Gottlieb retired with honor. Himan has a new job in another police force. Levicy is nursing. Arico is still at Duke.

Mark, those “dumb statements” and “stupid mistakes” and PERSISTANCE of an inexperienced nurse almost sent three innocent kids to prison for life and certainly permantly defamed the entire team. (“Something Happened” will forever endure) I am stunned how you can belittle the magnitude of what happened here with such casual words!

Your dismissive attitude underscores one problem the suits hope to solve.

We WANT the detailed story told. Discovery is key. Let’s hear ALL of it. Who did what and when. These kids bore the burden of the party for over a year. Let’s see how moral and noble and upright and law-abiding and truthful …the behavior of Duke and Durham leadership was in that long year as well. Let’s talk about THEIR choices….folks in positions of power and authority, not teenagers at a party! Let’s see the morality of their decisions! Come on. let’s see it all!

After what they endured, is that too much for these families to ask…that there is a permanent LEGAL RECORD of the magnitude and the minutae of the Hoax?

* * *

Robert Steel has been quoted by Jason Trumpbour as dismissing his concerns about false prosecution by stating… that if the kids were convicted..”This would all be sorted out on appeal.”

Thank God , there were no convictions. But now when the spotlight shifts to Duke and Durham, why shouldn’t the families want it all “sorted out” in a court of law as well. Why should they be even indirectly criticized for that?

(I’ve merged two back-to-back into one by tacking a short one onto the end of a longer one.)

You’re right, I don’t know what purpose the families bringing the suits have in mind. If I was in their situation I’m sure that I’d want to find a way to keep the same thing from happening again. It seems to me that if that’s the goal, a lawsuit is a very blunt instrument, especially such a complex one involving many parties who were involved in very different ways. Nonetheless it may be the best or only option for them—certainly it could give them real leverage that couldn’t be had any other way.

Anyway, I was making a smaller and more literal claim and I should have been clearer about it. I looked at the lawsuits and in both cases the remedies sought are compensatory and punitive damages plus expenses. Whether they could or should have put language in their “prayer for relief” having to do with reform, I don’t know.

It seems to me that you’re far too ready to judge the comments of others by their tone (“I am stunned how you can belittle the magnitude of what happened here with such casual words!”). Obviously I can’t speak for Mark, but I don’t get the impression that he’s belittling anyone. A few days ago you complained that your direct questions don’t get answered. He came back with some straightforward and direct answers. So it seems that you don’t just want answers, you want answers with a tone that proves to you that the big issues have been taken seriously enough, or something like that.

You’re also quick magnify any perceived slight to the families (“Why should they be even indirectly criticized for that?”). It’s one thing to be an advocate—it’s a fine thing to do for the players’ families, as far as I’m concerned. But for you the debate seems to hinge on the suffering of one side and the appropriate compassion (or lack of it) in response. As I said before, that’s effectively a trump card, at least for me—when my words and even my tone are read as implicitly denying or disparaging the suffering of some third parties that I have no reason or basis or interest in judging, the best response is no response.

A lot has changed in the Durham PD. Gottlieb is gone, Himan has moved on to another job, Linwood was fired, and you have a new Police Chief. I guess it would be nice if there was some admission that all or most of these changes were the result of the lacrosse case, but that did not happen because of the possibility of lawsuits and that is not likely to happen if nothing else than because of the current lawsuits.

As far as my opinion goes, those four along with the ex-DA share the most blame for this mess of a case. As to Levicy, you preface your question with (if charges are true) and I know that they are pretty much assumed to be true in certain quarters. I would prefer to wait and see what information comes out in the civil case. My opinion is that she was an inexperienced SANE nurse and that her opinion of CGM’s condition is close to worthless. If this had gone to court, I doubt that her opinion would be given much weight. The AG did not accuse her of altering or manufacturing evidence, simply stated that in their opinion, she was wrong in her opinion, because it was not based on the facts.

Arico jumped to her defense and made some pretty dumb statements just as Duke officials made some stupid mistakes with the key card info and giving bad legal advice to the players.

Your last question: “Why does it take lawsuits to correct egregious behavior that is so blatantly obvious?” My opinion is that some or even most of the folks named in these lawsuits did not engage in blatantly obvious egregious behavior. And I don’t believe that correcting this so-called egregious behavior is the only purpose or even the primary purpose of the lawsuits.

I completely agree that the current lacrosse-case lawsuits aren’t aimed at reforming the institutions that are being sued. On the other hand, it often takes a lawsuit or at least the threat of one to get such institutions to pay attention and make changes that need to be made. Whether in this case they’re the only way or the best way to bring about change and reform, I don’t know.

Levicy (if charges are true) made deliberate decisions in her professional capacity that threatened the “lifetimes” if not the lives of three young men. Her superiors did not challenge her or correct the record during the long months of the case. As to being “discredited”, she is still employed as a nurse. What professional penalty has she paid? What professional price has Arico paid for supporting those lies?

I question why Duke as her employer, after the AG released his report…never held her or Arico professionally accountable. Why were measures not taken to make clear Duke found her false declaration of “blunt force trauma” in a criminal case beyond the pale for THEIR OWN professional standards. Why will it take lawsuits to attempt to have this done. Why does not Duke care to uphold the highest standards for itself without being forced by legal action?

In regard to the Durham PD, Gottlieb et al were never even reprimanded. Not one thing has changed. Why, in light of the AG’s findings did the DPD not recognize and clean its own house? Why do they not want the highest standard for the taxpayers they serve?

Why do we need lawsuits to get some remedy to the outrageous tactics in this case?

This is a variation on the same question that has puzzled and outraged me from the start. Why does it take bloggers to speak out for these kids on a campus filled with gifted and extraordinary thinkers and writers and law school profs and students? Why does it take lawsuits to correct egregious behavior that is so blatantly obvious?

Those are all good question. Unfortunately, there’s nothing unprecedented about the irresponsible, hostile and self-serving behavior of various bad actors involved in the lacrosse case, so it seems to me that your big questions, like why does it take a lawsuit, are ultimately not about the case but about human nature. And I don’t have any special insight into the specific questions about Levicy and the DPD. That’s why I don’t write about those things. It’s not that I don’t care or that I think they’re trivial or excusable—the bad judgment and outright vindictiveness of the DPD, in particular, is shocking. And I am one of the taxpayers they’re supposed to serve, so it’s not an abstract issue. If I had anything to say about it beyond just venting, I would. But for me the first step towards being able to put together a good answer to your questions would be to get a realistic sense of how good police detectives, SANE nurses, college administrators, etc., go about their business—what are the challenges and compromises, etc. And then get as clear an idea as I could of the circumstances and constraints that set up whatever happened in the lacrosse case.

The City of Durham at one point appeared to recognize the need for accountability by formation of a commission to review the actions of the City and Police Department. That commission was put on hold by the threat of loss of insurance coverage. Why can a city abdicate its governmental duty to its citizen to be accountable?

Any fair assessment of the publicly available information would conclude that it wasn’t only Nifong who created the frame. The Attorney General said as much and the Bar hearing implicated many others. When the attorney general of a state concludes that others are culpable, I think it is safe for reasonable people to conclude that accountability has not occurred.

The how much is secondary. Primary is accepting responsibility and instituting changes to prevent future occurrences, one that might affect you more directly.

Why?

My last post was intended to ask specific questions about YOUR opinions on the specific actions of the parties in each paragraph. SO-o-o what are your opinions? Aren’t we posting here to share? Do you each think …. that there need be NO more accountability or explanation or revelation from ANY of these parties?

Are you of the opinion that Levicy’s actions and pronouncement (if as alleged) of declaring “blunt force trauma” to police authorities WHEN THERE WAS NONE…and altering medical data later to fit “new details” to assist Nifong’s false prosecution …requires no further debate/action/ reaction/ consequences or EXPOSURE? Does publicizing that this CAN happen and allegedly DID happen…not serve to inform the general public..alert and alarm them a bit so…in the future, we will be aware? Is there not merit in just THAT? The media wants us to be aware of bad tomatoes and jalapeño peppers…even if only small numbers are affected…how about Agenda-istas who have the power to say “Rape/ NO RAPE” and ruin lives?

Do you want the pay-off to the Three indicted boys to buy a cover-up in this? Remember the silence of Levicy’s superiors as well? Is there not a warning to the general public here as worthy as a bad jalapeño? I hope the civil suits and “discovery” will cause MORE coverage everywhere about this. How about you? Time to fold up and send $50 to the Innocence Foundation and tell the rest of us you’ve found a more noble way?

What about the Durham DPD? What about the intimidation of the second dancer after she declared this a “Crock”, the trial of Elmo, the no-lose line up? There has been no clean-up at the DPD, no admission of wrong doing. Are you content to allow them to contend they “MADE NO MISTAKES”, and that the practices WE ALL SAW were how a good police department DOES IT’S JOB? If we allow that impression to stand…why should those tactics EVER change? Will we know when it happens in Durham next time..if no one is watching? How much wrong doing do we need to see from those we entrust WITH THE POWER OF AUTHORITY over ourselves and our children…before we decide we have to try to MAKE them admit these tactics are wrong and change? Shouldn’t we try? Will silence make change happen?

I believe Brodhead and Steele are beneath contempt. They should GO. I would like Brodhead to stand naked this January in Times Square before a 20’ by 20’ blow-up of Houston Baker’s email to Patricia Dowd …and read every email, op-ed, letter to the Editor and television transcript from every bigoted, “Rush-to-Judgement” Duke faculty member that devastated the families. This would be a fitting symbolic “exposure” of his shivering impotence in the face if that faculty SLANDER. I would perhaps permit him a “fig-leaf” of a multi-million dollar DUKE check which is how, of course, the man DOES try to cover himself.

I won’t push our Host about Duke faculty or Brodhead. That’s our Host’s livelihood and I understand his position. Enough harm has been done. I respect that he has said as much as he has. But, tell me… WHAT EXACTLY are you all suggesting would be a better use of our time? Having seen the things I did, I feel a commitment to keep trying for accountability and change. In your eyes, that makes me a bit tiresome I can tell..but then, give some specifics as to the “OTHER WAYS” and perhaps you convince me to redirect my emotional energy too.

I am well aware of my own limitations and the decreasing possibility that anything WILL CHANGE. I am well aware that most folks will never know the extent of the ugliness that happened here. Suppressing the story is the real success of the big bucks Duke paid out …I’m just hoping discovery will dent the economic arrogance.

Boredom and lack of interest by people one would hope desperately WOULD be interested…is the other victory for the Hoaxers. And, of course, those who were not moved enough to even write a letter to the Editor when three boys lives were on the line…well, what can we expect of THEM now? But as long as the civil suits continue, I will have hope for some accountability, some exposure, some warning to the general public of what CAN HAPPEN ANYWHERE these days.I will bang my little pot.

I think exposing the egregious evidence of harm, bias and illegal wrongdoing in this case is important to protect others. But I realize it will never draw the interest or the heavy media coverage of a few bad jalapeño peppers.

Do you think differently?

(I wonder if any of you will answer in specifics? Will this be derided by our Host as a “political commercial” or some other witty one-liner so he can dodge what makes him uncomfortable? Will Mark decide to defend the jalapeño industry ? Or will anyone say what they really think about Levicy, the DPD, etc? Let’s be honest..unless we open up about our differences ON POINT… there’s no “better” discussion here than at any “gated community.)

I’m not sure if the “you” of the previous comment and the “YOUR” of this one is specifically me or whoever’s reading and might respond or, in this comment, Mark. As far as I’m concerned, many of those questions call for either a very short answer (yes or no) or a longer answer and much more time-consuming answer. But a lot of what keeps me from answering is the attitude. For instance, should “grade retaliation and classroom humiliation and wanted posters on campus,” etc. be “just tut-tutted aside as only a itty bitty deviance from the status quo?” No they shouldn’t. Have I “tut-tutted them aside”? I don’t think so—they’re not matters that I treat dismissively.

As far as Levicy, the Durham Police, etc., like Mark (I think) I’m mystified by the idea that all these things are being swept under the rug given how central they are to several ongoing lawsuits. And on the whole it seems like most everyone involved in furthering Mangum’s rape charge has been thoroughly and publicly discredited. With Nifong and the DPD, it seems to me that the discredit and the lawsuits that have come with it are, on the whole, richly deserved. It’s not clear to me how well deserved it is in the Duke administration and medical center. It would be nice if the lawsuits shed some light on that, and even nicer if they resulted in some real, public accountability. I guess that’s a point we agree on. I don’t see how throwing more speculation and rhetorical condemnation in their direction is going to help, though.

In any case, I don’t think the comments made here about the current state of the LieStoppers forums have reached the point where anyone needs to tell you what a better use of your time would be. It seems like some points have been raised that are worth considering. This one from Michael Gustafson most of all:

Part of why I’ve stopped blogging (much) on the original case or any of the cases that follow is there’s much more work to be done and certain aspects of public participation, I’ve found, have had a negative effect on the possibility of making real change.

It’s your choice to consider or dismiss such opinions, right? Or are you proposing to tell us what a better use of our time would be?

This site is just my blog. On the whole I don’t want it to be a general lacrosse-case discussion forum, and at times I’ve been pretty hard-nosed about that. Lately it’s worked out well to open up the comment threads. I’m all for a frank and substantive exchange of opinions, but on the whole this is my little soapbox, not an alternative to forums like LieStoppers. Among other things I just don’t get enough traffic to support active and diverse conversations.

Who determines who is accountable and for how much? I guess the various lawsuits will decide this. However, I don’t believe that you will be ready to ‘move on’ until you are satisfied with the ‘who is accountable and for how much?’ answer. Do you think you will be satisfied with the results of these lawsuits?

In the meantime, there is just not enough going on with the cases to limit a discussion board to just that topic. Politics, race relations, other cases, and the housing crisis seem to be some of the issues that are being discussed now on boards that were primarily a forum for the Duke case in the past. It is interesting to see some real stretches being made in comparing these other cases or politics or race issues to the events of the Duke case. Despite some of the totally unrelated news there is much made of the us vs them camps in the Duke case and where the supporters or detractors stand on these unrelated issues.

My opinion, it will never be completely over because neither side is going to be completely happy with the answers regarding accountability. But the discussion will continue to turn to other issues.

Talk does tend to become an end in itself. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but over time it naturally drifts away from the original concerns as people look for this and that to keep the conversation going. There are lots of reasons to decide that it’s time to check out. Of the ones I’ve heard, I find Gus’s to be the most interesting and significant.

Duke claims they did nothing wrong.They claim Nurse Tara did nothing wrong. Would you have a “Nurse Tara” who sees “blunt force trauma” in a non-rape and knows no woman who ever lies about the topic…., AS THE PROFESSIONAL WHO STANDS BETWEEN TRUTH AND A FALSE CHARGE… absolved and affirmed and sent forth to inspire others? Would you?

Do you see grade retaliation and classroom humiliation and wanted posters on campus and room searches and conveyance of personal student information as so trifling that it should just tut-tutted aside as only a itty bitty deviance from the status quo?

Do you approve of a morality at the top that thinks three kids should stand trial (“it will be sorted out on appeal”) because that is “best for DUKE?” Do you want leadership like that to be able to quietly BUY “closure.”

Do you want the Durham PD to continue to operate as it did in this case, use the tactics it did in this case, be a model for how FAR other departments can go and receive a big YAWN from folks like you, who are just so easily bored because really …it’s just time to move on?So why does there need to be any CHANGE when interest is so fickle it demands none?

How tedious to continue to care about young men we didn’t really much care about or get involved with at the time.

But some of us think not just the boys, not just the families, but something more is in the balance here.

(Feel free to mock me as writing another political commercial or whatever you posted above. It sincerely happens to be what I feel and why I’m still here.)

I’m certainly not telling you or anyone else that it’s time to move on. As always, I’m speaking for myself, and I try to avoid telling other people what they should do or care about.

I remember the panel discussion about faculty bias (the audio used to be available online): the discussion went pretty well (and was very civil). Anyway, I pretty much am done with the Duke case, as other pressing causes require energy. But I will keep reading your blog posts!

Cheers

Yes, there is definitely a time to be done with the lacrosse scandal. If I had any sense I would have moved on a while ago—a couple more posts and I think I’ll be redirecting some energy as well. Always good to hear from you, and I hope the law school or post-law school thing is going well.