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	<title>Comments on: Responses to KC Johnson and others (revised)</title>
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		<title>By: Michael in NH</title>
		<link>http://reharmonized.an-earful.com/2007/12/responses-to-kc/comment-page-1/#comment-346</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael in NH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 10:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reharmonized.an-earful.com/2007/12/responses-to-kc/#comment-346</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;This comment has been edited. The &lt;a href=&quot;http://reharmonized.an-earful.com/extra-comments/#comment-370&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;full text&lt;/a&gt; is on a &lt;a href=&quot;http://reharmonized.an-earful.com/extra-comments/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;separate page&lt;/a&gt;, which also explains my comment policy.&lt;i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Part of DIW&#039;s attraction is the criminal justice aspect and how it relates to college students (both in criminal and university processes), how the media can inflame a story that fits a metanarrative and the problems that arise from a tipped balance of scales. You don&#039;t necessarily see all of these issues in KC&#039;s posts but they are discussed on his blog. Part of the simple attraction of the story is from parents with teenagers. Those with sons have learned of the unbalanced scales of justice and that teens at college do face risks that parents haven&#039;t considered. Those with daughters want them safe on college campuses and perpetuating a hoax actively is counterproductive.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;One thing that I&#039;ve been impressed with about KC is that he isn&#039;t afraid to dig into a matter, even if he isn&#039;t an expert. He seems to have no problems with hitting the research databases, contacting experts in a field for expert opinions and analysis and he corrects himself when an expert reports an error in his analysis.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;There&#039;s an intellectual curiousity and attention to detail in him that we expect from all Professors.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;center&gt;&lt;strong&gt;~&#160;&#160;&#160;~&#160;&#160;&#160;~&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/center&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;I understand that you feel that the issue of false rape accusations is very important, and I agree with you that it is, but this is not the place to discuss it at length. What would be more helpful would be links to sites, articles, or threads that discuss the issue and make a serious effort to balance the interests of victims and potential victims with the interests of those who might be accused. I do not see any value in judging or analyzing an organization like RAINN and/or its director on the basis of the lacrosse case alone.
&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>This comment has been edited. The <a href="http://reharmonized.an-earful.com/extra-comments/#comment-370" rel="nofollow">full text</a> is on a <a href="http://reharmonized.an-earful.com/extra-comments/" rel="nofollow">separate page</a>, which also explains my comment policy.</i><i></i></p>
<p>Part of DIW&#8217;s attraction is the criminal justice aspect and how it relates to college students (both in criminal and university processes), how the media can inflame a story that fits a metanarrative and the problems that arise from a tipped balance of scales. You don&#8217;t necessarily see all of these issues in KC&#8217;s posts but they are discussed on his blog. Part of the simple attraction of the story is from parents with teenagers. Those with sons have learned of the unbalanced scales of justice and that teens at college do face risks that parents haven&#8217;t considered. Those with daughters want them safe on college campuses and perpetuating a hoax actively is counterproductive.</p>
<p>One thing that I&#8217;ve been impressed with about KC is that he isn&#8217;t afraid to dig into a matter, even if he isn&#8217;t an expert. He seems to have no problems with hitting the research databases, contacting experts in a field for expert opinions and analysis and he corrects himself when an expert reports an error in his analysis.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s an intellectual curiousity and attention to detail in him that we expect from all Professors.</p>
<p><center><strong>~&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~</strong></center></p>
<p><i>I understand that you feel that the issue of false rape accusations is very important, and I agree with you that it is, but this is not the place to discuss it at length. What would be more helpful would be links to sites, articles, or threads that discuss the issue and make a serious effort to balance the interests of victims and potential victims with the interests of those who might be accused. I do not see any value in judging or analyzing an organization like RAINN and/or its director on the basis of the lacrosse case alone.<br />
</i></p>
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		<title>By: Michael in NH</title>
		<link>http://reharmonized.an-earful.com/2007/12/responses-to-kc/comment-page-1/#comment-324</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael in NH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reharmonized.an-earful.com/2007/12/responses-to-kc/#comment-324</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;[I’m not prepared to wade into the “real issues of rape” as a whole.]&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Some of the real issues of rape, including false accusations and false prosecutions have been argued at DIW in the past with wide disagreement about the statistics. You did bring up Reade&#039;s involvement with the Innocence Project and that project did benefit from revelations in the Duke Lacrosse case. What some of the Potbangers have admitted (in the Durham Yahoo Groups) is that their attracting attention to a hoax has actually hurt their own cause.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;[All I can do (and perhaps should have done) is refer to a group like Rape Abuse Incest National Network, which I believe is a responsible advocacy group and certainly doesn’t single out white men raping black women as the burning issue.]&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I had a look at this groups statements on the Lacrosse case and they did fall short. Their President said, &quot;This case is not about race, or athletes or strippers&quot; which is correct. But he missed the mark with these comments:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;The absence of DNA doesn&#039;t necessarily mean there wasn&#039;t a crime,&quot; said Scott Berkowitz, the founder and president of the Rape, Abuse &amp; Incest National Network, the nation&#039;s largest anti-sexual assault organization. &quot;There are times when they used a condom or they clean up the scene.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;http://www.rainn.org/news/charlotte-observer.index/html&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;and&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Despite the fact that DNA tests do not link any members of Duke University&#039;s lacrosse team to the woman who reported that three of its players sexually assaulted her last month, the district attorney&#039;s office strongly believes that enough evidence exists to continue this investigation in a court of law.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;Given this news,&quot; said Scott Berkowitz, president and founder of RAINN, &quot;it&#039;s apparent that the prosecution is convinced there was a crime and a grand jury agrees. This case is not about race, or athletes or strippers — it is about a rape. As a nation, we need to trust law enforcement to do its job and avoid assumptions until we know all the facts.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;http://www.rainn.org/news/duke-statement.index/html&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Seligmann&#039;s alibi information came out by April 19 (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&amp;page=1) and  Berkowitz could have commented on this but apparently chose not to.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;At search at the rainn.org site shows no mentions of &quot;innocence project&quot; or &quot;actual innocence&quot;. The NY Times has been running a series the last few weekends on those that have spent a lot of time in jail and proven innocent by DNA testing and how their incarceration has ruined their lives and how hard it is to recover.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This is an area that DIW has brought up as it certainly is related to due process in universities and criminal prosecutions. I think that the rape issue is important due to the balance of scales tilted towards believing the accuser resulting in imbalanced justice. Something that spilled over into the university environment.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;center&gt;&lt;strong&gt;~&#160;&#160;&#160;~&#160;&#160;&#160;~&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/center&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;
In your first paragraph I&#039;m with you. It&#039;s easy to throw around statistics about sexual assault, and I&#039;d rather not get into that--I have not special expertise. I admire the way Reade Seligmann has used the attention the case has drawn and directed it towards the Innocence Project and the like. And I&#039;m glad to hear that some who were involved in the potbanging protest are able to admit that it did harm to their cause. I&#039;m amazed that they thought it was a good idea in the first place, so I hope they learned something.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;As to your take on RAINN and its president, I have to say that strikes me as an excellent example of the litmus-test mentality that I see on Liestoppers, DIW and similar sites. Berkowitz&#039;s job is to think about the roughly 200000 sexual assaults his organization believes happen in a year, what can be done to reduce the number and help victims cope. His brief comments about the lacrosse case are tilted towards the interests of victims, but are not judgmental or inflamatory. I hope that he takes the issue of false accusations and convictions very seriously and doesn&#039;t trivialize it, but it wasn&#039;t his job or responsibility to monitor or moderate the lacrosse prosecution.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;DNA testing has given us all some new insight on how often the justice system gets it wrong, for sure, in rape cases and others. If a result of the miserable handling of the lacrosse case is some improvement in that situation, that would be great.
&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[I’m not prepared to wade into the “real issues of rape” as a whole.]</p>
<p>Some of the real issues of rape, including false accusations and false prosecutions have been argued at DIW in the past with wide disagreement about the statistics. You did bring up Reade&#8217;s involvement with the Innocence Project and that project did benefit from revelations in the Duke Lacrosse case. What some of the Potbangers have admitted (in the Durham Yahoo Groups) is that their attracting attention to a hoax has actually hurt their own cause.</p>
<p>[All I can do (and perhaps should have done) is refer to a group like Rape Abuse Incest National Network, which I believe is a responsible advocacy group and certainly doesn’t single out white men raping black women as the burning issue.]</p>
<p>I had a look at this groups statements on the Lacrosse case and they did fall short. Their President said, &#8220;This case is not about race, or athletes or strippers&#8221; which is correct. But he missed the mark with these comments:</p>
<p>&#8220;The absence of DNA doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean there wasn&#8217;t a crime,&#8221; said Scott Berkowitz, the founder and president of the Rape, Abuse &amp; Incest National Network, the nation&#8217;s largest anti-sexual assault organization. &#8220;There are times when they used a condom or they clean up the scene.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.rainn.org/news/charlotte-observer.index/html" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.rainn.org/news/charlotte-observer.index/html?referer=');">http://www.rainn.org/news/charlotte-observer.index/html</a></p>
<p>and</p>
<p>Despite the fact that DNA tests do not link any members of Duke University&#8217;s lacrosse team to the woman who reported that three of its players sexually assaulted her last month, the district attorney&#8217;s office strongly believes that enough evidence exists to continue this investigation in a court of law.</p>
<p>&#8220;Given this news,&#8221; said Scott Berkowitz, president and founder of RAINN, &#8220;it&#8217;s apparent that the prosecution is convinced there was a crime and a grand jury agrees. This case is not about race, or athletes or strippers — it is about a rape. As a nation, we need to trust law enforcement to do its job and avoid assumptions until we know all the facts.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.rainn.org/news/duke-statement.index/html" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.rainn.org/news/duke-statement.index/html?referer=');">http://www.rainn.org/news/duke-statement.index/html</a></p>
<p>Seligmann&#8217;s alibi information came out by April 19 (<a href="http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&#038;page=1" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806_038_page=1&amp;referer=');">http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&#038;page=1</a>) and  Berkowitz could have commented on this but apparently chose not to.</p>
<p>At search at the rainn.org site shows no mentions of &#8220;innocence project&#8221; or &#8220;actual innocence&#8221;. The NY Times has been running a series the last few weekends on those that have spent a lot of time in jail and proven innocent by DNA testing and how their incarceration has ruined their lives and how hard it is to recover.</p>
<p>This is an area that DIW has brought up as it certainly is related to due process in universities and criminal prosecutions. I think that the rape issue is important due to the balance of scales tilted towards believing the accuser resulting in imbalanced justice. Something that spilled over into the university environment.</p>
<p><center><strong>~&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~</strong></center></p>
<p><i><br />
In your first paragraph I&#8217;m with you. It&#8217;s easy to throw around statistics about sexual assault, and I&#8217;d rather not get into that&#8212;I have not special expertise. I admire the way Reade Seligmann has used the attention the case has drawn and directed it towards the Innocence Project and the like. And I&#8217;m glad to hear that some who were involved in the potbanging protest are able to admit that it did harm to their cause. I&#8217;m amazed that they thought it was a good idea in the first place, so I hope they learned something.</i></p>
<p><i>As to your take on RAINN and its president, I have to say that strikes me as an excellent example of the litmus-test mentality that I see on Liestoppers, DIW and similar sites. Berkowitz&#8217;s job is to think about the roughly 200000 sexual assaults his organization believes happen in a year, what can be done to reduce the number and help victims cope. His brief comments about the lacrosse case are tilted towards the interests of victims, but are not judgmental or inflamatory. I hope that he takes the issue of false accusations and convictions very seriously and doesn&#8217;t trivialize it, but it wasn&#8217;t his job or responsibility to monitor or moderate the lacrosse prosecution.</i></p>
<p><i>DNA testing has given us all some new insight on how often the justice system gets it wrong, for sure, in rape cases and others. If a result of the miserable handling of the lacrosse case is some improvement in that situation, that would be great.<br />
</i></p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://reharmonized.an-earful.com/2007/12/responses-to-kc/comment-page-1/#comment-321</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 01:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reharmonized.an-earful.com/2007/12/responses-to-kc/#comment-321</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As it is finals week where I now go to school  (law of all matters!), I won&#039;t be posting much.  But I found Duke to be a wonderfully engaging place, academically and socially.  Now and then I was frustrated by certain aspects (the social frat &#039;scene,&#039; and maybe the lack of conservative viewpoints in my major) but that would be true anywhere.  Besides the lacrosse fiasco, I will always look back at Duke with pride.  But seem posters seem really overly obessed with certain aspects of this case...I remember back in March thinking I was going to carry the torch of due process.  And then the &quot;liestoppers&quot; caught on (with great effect I might add).  However, I think the due process argument has really dropped out, and frankly the conversations are too polarizing to be beneficial now.  (As much I was abhorred by some faculty&#039;s members&#039; actions, actions of some responding have been much worse).  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;(And not only am an alum of the university, but im also an alum of one of your classes :)  Cheers&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;center&gt;&lt;strong&gt;~&#160;&#160;&#160;~&#160;&#160;&#160;~&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/center&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;Nick-From your email address I tracked you down on my class list for Music 70. I&#039;m still getting plenty of use out of that iPod :). And yes, as you said in another comment, the music building is practically around the corner from the site of all that collective noise. I was worlds away at the time (mentally, that is). Thanks for the perspective and good luck on those finals and the rest of law school.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As it is finals week where I now go to school  (law of all matters!), I won&#8217;t be posting much.  But I found Duke to be a wonderfully engaging place, academically and socially.  Now and then I was frustrated by certain aspects (the social frat &#8216;scene,&#8217; and maybe the lack of conservative viewpoints in my major) but that would be true anywhere.  Besides the lacrosse fiasco, I will always look back at Duke with pride.  But seem posters seem really overly obessed with certain aspects of this case&#8230;I remember back in March thinking I was going to carry the torch of due process.  And then the &#8220;liestoppers&#8221; caught on (with great effect I might add).  However, I think the due process argument has really dropped out, and frankly the conversations are too polarizing to be beneficial now.  (As much I was abhorred by some faculty&#8217;s members&#8217; actions, actions of some responding have been much worse).  </p>
<p>(And not only am an alum of the university, but im also an alum of one of your classes <img src='http://reharmonized.an-earful.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   Cheers</p>
<p><center><strong>~&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~</strong></center></p>
<p><i>Nick-From your email address I tracked you down on my class list for Music 70. I&#8217;m still getting plenty of use out of that iPod <img src='http://reharmonized.an-earful.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> . And yes, as you said in another comment, the music building is practically around the corner from the site of all that collective noise. I was worlds away at the time (mentally, that is). Thanks for the perspective and good luck on those finals and the rest of law school.</i></p>
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